Monday, January 16, 2012

Fromm--Disobedience as a Psychological and Moral Problem

I've found a full text copy of Fromm's article for Wednesday's reading, so here is the link to "Disobedience as a Psychological and Moral Problem." What do you think of this idea that, according to the mythology of many cultures (keep in mind that by "mythology," Fromm means "a system of beliefs"), the human race began through an act of disobedience? Does this change the way you feel about disobedience vs. obedience? Can you think of any other important historical events that began with acts of disobedience?

25 comments:

  1. Erich Fromm, in his article "Disobedience as a Psychological and Moral Problem", makes the statement "...any social, political, and religious system which proclaims freedom, yet stamps out disobedience, cannot speak the truth." Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?

    Marty P.

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    2. I almost agree with his statement as long as he intends for the word "stamp" to mean "forcefully eliminate," but even then I would not accept his absolutist statement as completely true. For example, religion denounces disobedience to certain moral principles, but it does not withhold one's right to act freely. Now, government punishes disobedience to laws. These laws are rational, and we have given the government authority to enforce them. People who break them are punished. The government indeed stamps out disobedience to these rationally agreeing laws, yet it proclaims freedom. I think that our government still speaks the truth because it's law-enforcement programs only keep others’ disobedience from infringing on other people's rights. We still have the bill of rights. We still have our civil rights. Therefore, we are still free.

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    3. Very valid argument, Devin, thanks for the input! I definitely agree that in many cases something that can be perceived as limiting actually increases our freedom and ability to do many more things.

      Marty P.

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  2. This reading comes on strong at first by stating the disobedience of Adam, Eve and/or Prometheus as being the start of human history. The author had my attention at first, but then did not keep it because I could not tell what he really thought. At first he was sure that disobedience was great, but then he seems confused by complimenting both obedience and disobedience. What does anyone else think? Shouldn't we expect more when someone threatens the becoming of man as a "myth"?

    Brad C.

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    1. I agree with you Brad that the reading started off strong and caught my attention. I think that not having his opinion shine through in his article by presenting information from both sides is admirable and helps the reader form their own opinion about the issues he presents. I think that by saying that he isn't trying to be disrespectful, but trying not to claim whether he believes in it or not including the Greek "myth". He treats them with the same respect and/or disrespect, but regardless he treats them the exact same. Do you agree?

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    2. I agree Brad, the reading did start off strong. I felt like after that he seemed to trail off. Other than the Adam and Eve situation, I felt like he had good sources after that. I just dont agree that great social progression has come from disobedience.

      Brock Richins

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    3. Kirstin-good point, we do need to create our own opinion. That is a good way of interperting the middle and end of his article. But it was the first that causes confusion. I feel that when an individual calls something a "myth", he is calling it as not being true. And so I naturally expected him to attempt to prove it wrong, but instead he based his article upon the start of man as being disobedience and then fades into what seemed to be a nuetral position. It is kind of like when someone calls another a liar with wanting to fight and then talking himself out of it while being afraid to make a stand for what he truly believes.

      Brad C.

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    4. Brock,
      Can you imagine how great of a social progression the people of this world could achieve with positive obedience? Most of the time positive effects positive and negative effects a negative outcome. When a positive overpowers the negative great things happen.
      Brad C.

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  3. About the "...any social, political, and religious system" quote I think in the context that he uses it I’d agree that is any organization that claims to support and fight for freedom but then proceeds to restrict others freedom in one way or another is hypocritical. But it is also very easy to take this quote out of context and think it’s a blanket statement applying to everything which I don’t agree with you can’t pose a valid argument that always being disobedient will help everyone all the time. Earlier in the article he explains how you need to be able to think of the options and decide yourself what is right and not be afraid to disobey as opposed to groups who might just want you to blindly follow and not question.

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  4. In this reading Fromm went over how the end of time would be when we actually start obeying and following rules, but later in the reading he talked about how all we do is obey in reference to authortiy did anybody else notice this? What is everybody's thoughts on if we obey or disobey more?

    Marcus C.

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    1. I think if we obey good things will come from it, not always but it ups our chances. I look back on my life and I cannot recall many times that when I disobeyed my parents or who ever, something good came from it. Yes sometimes it takes disobedience to create change (Rosa Parks), but I would say that is an anomaly. Our best bet is to just be obedient to the things we believe in.

      Brock Richins

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    2. I think Brock brought up something rather important: "...be obedient to the things we believe in". To build onto that, I also think it's important to really investigate the things we believe in; to dig in deep and learn all there is to know, instead of mindlessly following along with every wind of doctrine. (be it religious, secular, or whatever else)

      Marty P.

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  5. In response to Marcus's post, I really wasn't paying attention to the text while I was reading it. Anyhow, forget I said that. I think whether or not we obey is realative to the situation. If what the person is asking you to do coincides with your beliefs, then by all means do what they are asking you do it. However, if you know that what they are asking you to do is wrong, we had better stand up and to what we know to be right.

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  6. Response to Carl's post, I think that this is a very valid comment, but at the same time in Lessing's article titled Group Minds it discusses that we live in groups. We may belong to religious groups, political, and many more. Lessing states that "When we are in a group, we tend to think as that group does" (724). What do you think about that? He suggest that, "It is the hardest thing in the world to maintain an individual dissident opinion, as a member of a group" (724). And that? Sometimes the media's opinions heavily influence our behavior and sometimes we don't even know how heavily we are influenced and that our opinions and ideas don't usually derive from within.

    Kirstin H.

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  7. Well, Kristin, I would argue that while groups do influence our thoughts and our behavior, we also influence the thoughts and behavior of the others in that group. Especially after we have become an established part of the same. Take, for example, a group of friends. This group may have a certain opinion or behavioral habit at one time, and over time (be it days, weeks, or months) that opinion or habit can change as different parts of the group take a more active role in the group.

    Marty P.

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  8. In responce to Marty, I strongly agree with you. We are influenced by groups, yet some groups are probably very influenced by us, and what we do. In junior high school, your friends and yourself have views and opinions that sometimes change as you grow older into high school or college. I know for a fact, that's how my friends and I were, and still are. Our "groups" whether it be a religious group, a family, group of friends, etc, may think one thing as a whole, but you as an individual may have your own opinion.

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  9. I agree with Carly and Marty with their arguement. The people we hang out with usually play a big part in who we are. But like Carly said even though we are part of groups we can be individualistic too. Marty talks about how ideas change within a group, I think a big reason ideas change because a member within the group that has a little more authority than others changes his mind so others do as that particular member does.

    Marcus C.

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  10. This is my last post!!! And I'm running out of places to say things, so I'll just say something else here. Disobedience can be seen as a problem if someone is not obeying a parent or a boss. It's kind of important to listen to your boss, especially if you want to keep your job.

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    1. I'm replying to my own post. Don't give into bad peer pressure! It someone wants you to do drugs, just say "no!" Do something because it's right.

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  11. I remember when i first read the disobedience is they way for our society to grow I thought that it couldn't be true. However, as i thought about it i realized it is true. the only reason we get new laws is because people disobey their parents. sad but true.

    Jackie M.

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  12. Could there be another way for our world to grow with out disobedience?

    Jackie M.

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  13. Think of our Founding Fathers and how they were disobedient towards England. If they weren't disobedient towards England then there would be no United States, so I think there needs to be disobedience in our lives.

    Christian Farr

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  14. I think without disobedience then everyone would be and act the same. Like Dr. Suess's stories the Snitches were disobedent because they wanted to be segregated in their two different classes. So everyone should be disobedient and different then being the same and obedient.

    Christian Farr

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